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Episode #17 - Building a Recession Proof Small Business

• American Gutter Monkeys, LLC • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Recessions, inflation, supply chain disruptions—every business faces storms sooner or later. The question is, are you ready for them?

In this episode, Dennis Siggins draws from more than 40 years of business experience to share what really works when it comes to building a recession-proof small business. We talk about how to read the signs of a downturn before it hits, why keeping strong financial records matters more than ever, how to build the cash reserves that can keep your business steady, and why carrying too much debt can cause you to miss the opportunities that often arise during tough times.

We also dive into lessons from past downturns—including the 1970s, the 2008 financial crisis, and the COVID era—and why proactive leadership always beats reactive decisions when the economy gets rough.

If you’re building or running a business of your own, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

Chris:

Every business faces storms, whether it's a full-blown recession, rising costs or just a tough stretch that hits your bottom line. In this episode, building a Recession-Proof Business, we talk about how to recognize the signs early, why your financial records are one of the most powerful tools, and how to make smart, proactive moves before things get worse. Dennis shares what he's doing right now inside his own business, from adjusting team structure to reworking inventory strategy. Plus, we look back at past downturns, from the forgotten recessions of the 70s to the 2008 crash, and lessons we pulled from COVID. Whether you're running a crew, leading a franchise or just trying to keep your business steady, this one's packed with real world advice.

Chris:

We've got a great show for you, so grab a cup of coffee, sit back, relax and welcome to Monkey Business Radio. All right, so let's dive in. Hello, dennis, how are we doing today? Good, chris, how are you today? Good, good, we've got a great episode for you today. To start today's discussion, let's get grounded in what we're actually talking about, dennis. How do you define a recession based on what you've seen over the years?

Dennis:

There's a lot of varying accounts and definitions for a recession and to start, when you're in a recession, you know it, the powers that be know it. A recession is a significant and, generally speaking, a widespread downturn in our economic activity that, by definition, has to last at least two quarters. Six months of negative gross domestic product, negative GDP. Basically, what that means is we have two consecutive down quarters in a row. It's symptomatically, it's a significant decline in economic activity. Numerically, financially speaking. A recession by definition has to last two quarters and it generally lasts a whole lot longer than that. But also the economy may not recover to its former peaks for many, many years. Even though by definition, numerically, mathematically, financially, we may not be in a recession, by definition, it sure feels like it.

Chris:

Yeah, there's lingering effects. Employment takes a while to recover things like that.

Dennis:

Yeah, unemployment can remain high.

Chris:

Bond prices adjust slowly over time.

Dennis:

Yeah, and I remember the crash of 08. We'll talk about that in a little bit, but by definition, the crash and the recession of 08 really lasted about a year and a half, but the fallout lasted a whole lot longer Years and years and years to recover from that. Chris, we grew up in the 70s and I always say that the 70s the greatest recession that nobody talks about. I spent an hour or so yesterday bopping around doing a little bit of research and seeing what people think and say about the 70s and one of the things I came up with is they identify three or four minor recessions throughout the 70s. No-transcript. If the gas was even available, terms like stagflation, hyperinflation, were a part of the 70s. What was the interest rates?

Chris:

on a mortgage back then.

Dennis:

My first house. I bought end of 81 into 82. We closed and I paid prime which was 18 plus three. I paid 21% interest on my first mortgage but I think it peaked out at about 18%. But conversely, cd rates were solid, beginning at 12% guaranteed in the early 1970s, and I think CD rates peaked out in the late 1970s 1980 maybe at about 18%. So they were in keeping with inflation and it was a great inflation buster for young people that were just pouring money into CDs and leaving it there. But the 70s was just a big, freaking recession. I mean, everybody was hurt by that and for some reason that's not mentioned in the same breath as the crash of 08, which they call the Great Recession and the Great Depression of the 30s. The 70s seems to have been forgotten.

Chris:

Yeah, well, it kind of snuck up on people. There was no like triggering event, event, massive triggering event. We had a couple of things oil embargoes, a couple other things in there but we didn't have like this dramatic monday morning everybody woke up and there was no carnage.

Dennis:

You know which we did in the in black thursday back in 1929 and we also did an 08 when the markets crashed absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of the crash of 08, that was do you remember the subprime lending issue? That was the biggest catalyst. Yeah, and like a house of cards or you know, like the domino effect, once the subprime lending reached its critical point, the tipping point you can't reverse that critical point, the tipping point, you can't reverse that and it impacted virtually every component of financial USA because people couldn't pay their mortgages.

Chris:

In 08, we start getting little companies popping up, taking advantage of the fact that people needed an extra income. They might've lost their job, they're not making as much anymore, they're cutting back, and things like Airbnb and Uber appeared in 2008 and 2009 to create sort of this side income. If you would have invested in those little tiny companies in 08, today you would be doing okay. So there's again. There's sort of that opportunity that was there there's always opportunities and just got to kind of look around for it. But those guys that saw that that's what they ended up doing. They started Airbnb and Uber as a way to make money on the side. It's really the start of the gig economy, which today is huge.

Dennis:

One of the things that happened to me my roofing company, which was just a large and booming and growing concern from 01 to 07, just took it right on the chin. I went three or four crews and 20 guys down to a spec. I just I tightened up my belt and we went back to a five, six person company with one crew, you know, and just made sure that we didn't fail as a company, which we didn't, yeah, so that's a good segue.

Chris:

Why don't we start talking what we get into a little bit about? The topic of this episode is how do you session proof your small business. You know, in the intro we talked a little bit about. You know, stop worrying about the forecast. You know these things happen, especially your sessions, every six to 10 years, I think on average, you never know right, you never know. So let's just keep your gutters clean and kind of use the gutter monkey analogy there. But how do we do that?

Dennis:

How do I keep my gutters clean if I own a small? These storms? You know, we had a great year last year in our businesses here and we turned the corner and had a phenomenal January, but February was terrible. But February is also the coldest February in 10 years and we work outdoors. March was rainy, rainy, rainy and the first half to April was just pouring rain and it just felt like we couldn't get out of the starting blocks. April was just pouring rain and it just felt like we couldn't get out of the starting blocks. And so we came into April. You know, mid-april the rain finally eased up and business is starting to get a little bit better.

Dennis:

But I was seeing some really significant telltale signs. So I made a couple of strategic moves within my own company back around April 1st, made another strategic move about April 15th and yesterday I sat down with some of my key people and I said we're in a recession, maybe it's not going to last and I know we're going to weather the storm, but we're going to make some changes. And I sat down with three or four of my key people yesterday and we made changes in scheduling. We redesigned our teams that go out into the field and I said this is how we're going to do it. And Everybody that was in on the meeting said that sounds very good, that's very reasonable. So the first I think the first step in doing anything when it comes to a recession is to recognize that you're in one. I fought it, I acted like we weren't, I made moves like we weren't. We made changes back in February and March and just nothing was getting traction. And the weather got good and things got a little better, but not the way they should be, and I said okay, it's time to act accordingly. We're going to make some changes, outline them with my partner in the morning, and then we had a couple of our key people come in and we've made some changes that we've begun implementation and by next Monday, four or five days from now, they'll be fully implemented.

Dennis:

So one of the things that I do recall before the 08 crash was my financial planner asked me just in a random meeting we were having how many of your customers are using financing to do their job? Customers are using financing to do their job. So my primary job was we were a roofing company and the average roof back in 2007 was $8,000. And in previous years, financing was rarely, if ever, an issue. So I made an extra column in my ledger because we used to do about a hundred roofs a year. So we would lay our a hundred contracts a year, so we would check off the in the ledger column that said using financing.

Dennis:

What I found was I began this in about oh five and by oh seven, I had this talk with my financial planner and I said, yeah, 82% of my people are using. This wasn't my, I do. I also had a new construction company that did new constructions, additions and renovations. I was a separate entity but the roofing alone 82% were using financing. And what I also noticed was a few of my customers had me back two and three times and each time I would have to fill out the appropriate form so that they could fill out their data for the bank for a home equity loan. So I knew who was using financing and I realized a lot of people are going back to that well, two and three times, and that's not renewable, that's not a sustainable model. So I kind of had a feeling that we were coming into a bit of a recession. So, starting in about 05, 06, if I had somebody quit, I wouldn't replace them.

Chris:

Yeah.

Dennis:

In 03, 04,. If someone quit, I'd hire two people one to replace them and one to grow.

Chris:

Because you kept accurate financial records and you started that new column to figure out who's financing who's not. You were able to kind of see that I mean, if you don't do those sort of things in your business, sometimes you might miss it, sure, you might be late to the game. It could really cost you. So that's kind of one of the probably one of the items you kind of want to make sure you've got under control, you know, keeping your good financial records, being able to tell year to year what your changes are, what's happening to your business. Don't bury your head in the sand and hope this one is just going to pass by, or maybe I can eat my way through it, maybe come to grips with it sooner and hopefully your financial records help you do that.

Dennis:

And actually you're exactly right, because that's what I used. This year. We basically have three revenue streams coming into our companies and I looked at the two key ones and one of them was way down and I said this is no longer a short-term thing. We're talking about 10 weeks in a row of this particular revenue stream is way below average.

Chris:

You could look back in time and tell that this is something different than we've had bad years before, bad winters before, exactly.

Dennis:

And we can go back and compare to those years time and tell that this is something different than we've had bad years before, bad winters before, right exactly.

Dennis:

And we can go back and compare to those years and the comparisons didn't look good for February, march, april of 2025. So over these past six weeks, I've been making some of these changes and none of them are earth shattering. They're just changes within the organization that none of our customers and nobody on the outside is going to see them, but we're tightening our belt on the inside, we're proactively acting as though, at the very least, we are going to be in some form of a short-term recession. And, as you say, it is my financial records that tells me the story and that's why I recommend always keep good financial records and review them regularly so that you know what they mean, and they will go a long way to helping you recognize the signs of a boom economy coming or a potential recession, or at least a downturn in the economy, maybe even make it a little easier for you to get ahead of your competition.

Chris:

Yeah Right, you'll be able to, you know, be ahead of them, you know, outmaneuver them.

Dennis:

Well, I do remember during post COVID times it was hard to get product. It was very hard to get material, and at the time my wife used to call your order in on Thursday and they deliver it Monday morning at eight o'clock, like clockwork. Year after year, week after week, year after year. That was it. And when COVID came along, you couldn't get things as quickly, and then the prices started skyrocketing. There were trucker strikes. The states and the federal government were paying our potential employees to stay home and sit on their hands, so it was hard to hire new people for growth and it was hard for our suppliers to hire people, and at the time Barbara was making contacts with two, three, four other suppliers, as well as the manufacturing people out in Pittsburgh who produce aluminum, which is what we use a lot of. So I was gaining information from warehouse managers in Albany, new York, and Perth, amboy, new Jersey, and Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, and they were struggling with employment. The younger guys weren't coming back into this field and so their production was down. Thus prices were skyrocketing, and so Babs came up. We actually had to design an inventory system. We didn't have one at the time, but we created one, and during this time a lot of my competitors were going under.

Dennis:

Several of my competitors here on Cape Cod, people that I know and I know pretty well one of them. He was primarily a gutter guy but he said I'm just going back to general carpentry, I can't even get aluminum. Now. Another one of my competitors, but a friendly competitor. They started referring gutter work to me and I called the manager. He's a guy I've known. I knew his grandfather, I knew his dad, I've known this family for quite some time and I thanked him for throwing the work our way. He goes yeah, we're not going back into gutters anymore. We can't even get this stuff and from what I'm hearing, you guys are able to keep pace with this, so we're sending everything to you.

Dennis:

That was one of those benefits of our company from COVID. Is that it really? It caused two or three of my competitors to go out of business and when we finally did recover, we had a bigger, broader inventory system. That almost made us bulletproof and that's what we have today. I know that Andy ordered an extra oh gosh, an extra 10 rolls at 5,000 pounds of coil aluminum a month ago in the event that tariffs forced the prices up. So aluminum doesn't go bad. So he decided to drop an extra you know many, many thousands of dollars into aluminum. At three bucks a pound three and a half, he probably dropped an extra 15 to 18 grand into aluminum in the event that there was an issue with that. So these are just some of the little things that we did in-house yeah.

Chris:

I find it interesting, especially that you're kind of investing in efficiency. It's a great time to install something like an inventory system or maybe a CRM or something in your business that actually will help you manage your money better or manage your costs better or your margins, improve your margins, do all these little things. It's a good opportunity actually to go ahead and do something like that so it pays off, and then when you come out of it now you have these systems in place and it takes off on you.

Dennis:

It's every time there's a bump in the economy, good or bad, it creates opportunities.

Chris:

And I think Rockefeller said. He said I always tried to turn every disaster into an opportunity and he lives through some pretty big disasters and came out looking pretty good on the other end of it.

Dennis:

So oh yeah. So as far as recession-proofing your business, I think there's certain components that have sustained me in my 40-plus years of being self-employed. Number one build up working capital Cash on hand in the company account. Build up working capital during good times. Figure out what your monthly expenses are. Multiply it by three, you know, and keep that in your checking account and do the same thing you know. So if that's if your monthly expenses are 20 grand, keep 60 grand in your checking account. You know. Keep another 60 grand, you know, three months of expenses in your next account. Down your savings or your money market account.

Dennis:

If you're a larger company, as we are, yeah, we want to keep significantly more. We don't want to sweat payroll. We don't want to fall victim to a short-term but very significant price increase. So, number one build up your working capital during the good times. Keep your debt low or eliminate debt altogether. It's huge If you don't have any debt on your company. You know your trucks. I know we've all taken out debt at some time in our lives and business owners most of us have taken out debt early on in our business life. But I strongly encourage all my clients and all my franchisees to keep the debt as low as possible and try to proactively, aggressively go after eliminating that debt as soon as you can.

Chris:

Yeah, yeah, we touch on this all the time. It's this opportunity lost, oh gosh If you get this debt and things come along, you might see it perfectly clear. I know exactly how I'm going to deal with this. Look at this great opportunity here. Then you go to your checkbook or your savings or whatever and you look at it and say I can't take advantage of it. There's nothing worse than that. It's like losing twice. You actually recognized it and could have taken advantage of it, and now you're going to miss it.

Dennis:

Sure, it's like the surfer that doesn't catch the wave. Yeah Right, ten surfers out there and only three of them catch the wave. The other seven you can't catch up to it. Once it started to crest, you've missed that opportunity. That is the critical point. You've got to paddle back out and wait for the next one. Recognize what components of your revenue stream will be most vulnerable, or could be most vulnerable, to a recession, and do that before the recession gets here. Primarily, we have two or three revenue streams, and one of them is almost bulletproof and the other two. It appears that I think one of them is recession-proof and one has the capacity to be significantly impacted by a recession. Recognize that ahead of time, act accordingly, build in safeguards for that has the capacity to be significantly impacted by a recession.

Chris:

Recognize that ahead of time, act accordingly, build in safeguards for that and sort of. The flip side of that too is maybe if you're looking at part of your business and it's a big chunk of your business, it might be impacted by a recession. Maybe you should diversify a little bit too, maybe find other ways of maybe lessening your risk there, I guess, for that downturn.

Dennis:

I guess Sure, Just in recent years, there's one year it had happened and I said all right, we're going to take out an additional chunk of $1,500 a month additional marketing to combat, and it worked.

Dennis:

There was another year where we set up an internal follow-up program and Charlie decided to build it and run it, and it works really well and it still works to this day. So that was one that got us through, I don't know, three years ago. Last year we had a little something or other and I think we added an extra band of afternoon drive radio advertising. That worked. So a couple of the things I've done recently is I've selected a very different form of advertising than I've ever used before, but I think it's going to hit our target market. So, yes, be proactive.

Dennis:

If you look at all these little bumps in the road, we had a crash in 96, a stock market crash, then we had Y2K, then we had 9-11. Then we had the crash of 08. Then we have COVID, then we have post-COVID supply chain issues. There's always something. Now Y2K fizzled out. It was nothing more than a flash in the pan. 9-11 was real. That was devastating, and everybody in this country in some way was impacted on September 11th 2001. Same thing with COVID. Everybody in this country was impacted in some way, and so I still contend that, economically speaking. When good things happen, that's good. Everybody's happy. But when things occur that are not so good, there's almost always a silver lining. There's almost always opportunities to be had, opportunities that can be taken advantage of, and sometimes there's even an opportunity that never existed before, let's say, like a Lyft or an Uber or some of these other new innovative ideas that came of age during or because of difficult times.

Chris:

Yeah, yeah, this company, trader Joe's. You ever heard of Trader Joe's?

Dennis:

Yeah.

Chris:

They started out as like almost a 7-Eleven knockoff. They were called Pronto Markets and they got into competing with 7-Eleven. And he was actually a pretty smart guy. He actually went out and he saw that Americans were getting educated. They were looking for different sort of foods. They were flying. International Jet travel in the 60s was taking off into the 70s. Everyone was flying around the world. People wanted more different foods and different tastes and stuff like that, and he saw this was happening. But he also saw that inflation was creeping up and the 70s was starting to get a little tough. Prices were going up in the supermarkets, the quality was going down, so at any rate. So he noticed all this, so he pivoted no-transcript changes.

Dennis:

Adding extra advertising. Cutting back here? Okay. Be proactive about decision-making before the recession occurs or after you recognize it. Just be proactive. I mean if it means layoffs and you got to do layoffs, then you got to do it. If it means cutting back on stuff, cutting back on inventory and going on an as-needed basis, whatever, make decisions, be proactive. Don't cut back on your advertising. Be proactive about those decisions.

Chris:

Yeah, don't just hope it's going to all work out. Be proactive. Don't cut back on your advertising. Be proactive about those decisions. Yeah, don't just hope it's going to all work out.

Dennis:

If I just bury my head in the sand here, it's just all going to work out. Yeah, admit that. This is a recession. Don't lie to yourself, don't lie to your coworkers, don't lie to your team. If it's coming, if you feel it, then it's probably coming. Make those decisions.

Chris:

I know this is always a hot button for you too is this idea of discounting? Okay, now I'm going to discount. That's how I'm going to get my way through this recession. I'm going to discount my prices. I'm going to get into price wars with people. It's the only way to survive. How do you feel about that? Not a big fan of it.

Dennis:

There's a lot of ways in my industry we can cut costs, but I don't want to use an inferior product. We only use the heaviest gauge aluminum available. We actually special order our hangers, our gutter hangers. You can't get them at a normal supply house, so we order them in pallet loads twice a year. I would never go with an inferior hanger. These just it's a better product and I can't really explain it in great detail. It's just a better product and I'd never go, I'd never get cheap on that. So yeah, I mean I'm not big on getting in price wars, especially during recessions when we've got inflation and maybe there's some truth to these tariffs and it's going to cause some price increases, let's say, in aluminum. I don't want to be cutting my prices when aluminum prices are going up. I don't want to be cutting my prices and telling my labor force that we're all taking a cut in pay.

Chris:

I don't want to do that Part of that too kind of goes to the idea of keeping your customer service top notch during the recessions as well. So you're taking care. You're still taking care of your customers. You're not just going to offer them a cheap price, but you're going to make sure the product is really good.

Dennis:

Yeah. So you know, to kind of wrap that up, I'm not a big fan of cutting prices because generally during recessions, your costs increase. You know you have to pay more for labor and you're paying more for product and service, especially if the recession has impacted the price of your product, that the price has got more expensive. So, yeah, not a big fan of price cutting and price wars, but you know just my own personal thought on that. But make your necessary adjustments. Cut out the fat, the legitimate fat that you can do. If you and your staff goes out to dinner, you know, every Wednesday night, you know you might have to cut that out. Oh no, it's the only thing I really do. I love Wednesday night dinners.

Dennis:

Don't get hung up on a growth year, a record-breaking year. Don't get hung up on that. During a recession or a depression, what you want to do is just stay solvent, stay profitable. You don't have to grow, just weather the storm, patch the holes in the boat. Patch the holes in the boat, keep the boat in the middle of the river and weather the storm and then just recognize that when the recession is over, it's time to start moving in that direction again, kind of like the Warren Buffett thing.

Chris:

You know be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful, Sure you know.

Dennis:

I think that right now, in April of 2025, I think, we're in a little bit of a recession, so I'm acting accordingly. A couple of little things that have occurred to me. This is some of these little things. Cape Cod rentals are down right now. I've been hearing this from AAA, like reports from AAA, also reports that I get from the Cape Cod Chamber of Commerce Rentals are down compared to previous years down significantly. Another thing that I've heard is that and I heard this on a bloomberg money report on one of the radio stations that I listened to um you listen to bloomberg.

Chris:

I love bloomberg. Yeah, I used to work for bloomberg, of course, but that's right I forgot about that. I did.

Dennis:

I got hooked on their radio shows they have very good radio shows yeah, they, yeah, they have some good stuff.

Chris:

They have some very good podcasts too.

Dennis:

Here's one of the things I heard within the last day, 14 days is that and they gave the report on the upcoming vacation season Fewer people are planning to take vacations and those who are taking vacations and I don't remember the exact number, but significantly more of these people are going to finance their vacation via their credit card and not pay it off and have to pay it off after the fact, which means that's going to create a little more personal debt when they get back from their vacation, means they're going to have a little bit less disposable or discretionary income. There's a trickle-down effect. The report I heard from Bloomberg didn't sound all that wonderful and it's a personal recession. I mean, the economy could be booming, but if the company you work for closes, you're in a personal recession. You've got to go find a job and maybe you're not going to replace that income.

Dennis:

That happened a lot back in the crash of 08 and the following months and years after. That is, people that were making, you know, 130, 40, $50,000 a year were losing their jobs and and and having to go get a job at $65,000 a year, and their entire lifestyle, their mortgage payment, their car payments were all based on $140,000, $50,000 income and now you're at half that or less than half that. That's a personal recession, so we can all be impacted many ways, and I sort of threw that little thing at the end, because I have this talk with people all the time. Things are not going well. Well, you know, you're in a personal recession here, yeah, and you've got to act accordingly.

Chris:

And many of the things that we've been talking about keeping good records, you know, staying debt free, all these different things you know we're talking about small businesses completely apply to your personal. Yeah, they do. It's an interesting take, oh, chris. Interesting take, oh chris, what do you got another else? Another fun afternoon here at yeah, let's talk. I'm looking forward. I'll tell you, looking out over the next couple of years. I'm looking forward to our podcast where we say, okay, this is what you do in boom times. You know we're hitting this boom time now.

Dennis:

Things are going we've had a boom economy for many years now, right?

Chris:

oh, yeah, yeah, haven't we? Yeah, but we weren't on the front end of it when we were doing the podcast.

Dennis:

It'd be nice to be on the front end of it on a podcast.

Chris:

Hey, everybody, look out for this. We're going to boom right now, but that's coming.

Dennis:

I want to throw one little final thought out there. I feel so fortunate to have been in business and my company was a mid-level and we were growing very, very nicely in 2019, 2020. I feel so fortunate and so blessed to have been a part of the economy during COVID, because it was such an incredible learning experience to go through all of the stuff that we all went through the compliance, the downturn, the upswings, the material shortages and it was just an amazing thing and somehow we didn't go into recession during that.

Chris:

Very short. They say it was the shortest recession of all times, basically Roughly really in recession, really for only like two months, but we had a kind of a residual effect, so we probably had two quarters in there. So it was the smallest recession of all time. But the great thing, like you're saying right now, is there were so many lessons compacted into that small space that if you were involved in a business, like you said, during that time period, you could learn all sorts of things in a very short period of time you weren't in the 70s where it took 15 years to finally figure things out.

Chris:

You had two years. It was an intense learning experience, but you come through it. On the other side, you're in pretty good shape if you kept your business. Absolutely A lot of tragedy during that time, not to just strictly on the business side, if you think about it on the business side Correct, it certainly was true.

Dennis:

Correct. I mean there's no bigger tragedy than 9-11, but 9-11 changed our country forever. It changed our economy, which started that boom that began in 01 and ended in 08. I mean, just as one of these many, many things that impacts our economy and we don't know how it's going to impact the economy until it does, and chance favors the prepared Always be prepared.

Chris:

Yeah, how many times have we said that on these podcasts? Yeah.

Dennis:

Yeah, all the time.

Chris:

All right, that was a great episode. Thank you much. Very interesting.

Dennis:

And no monkeys were harmed in the making of this podcast there you go.

Chris:

All right, we'll talk to you next time. Bye, thank you for tuning in to Monkey Business Radio. If you enjoyed today's episode, please make sure to subscribe, like and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us reach more aspiring entrepreneurs like you, and if you've got a question or topic you'd like us to cover, leave a comment or reach out to us on social media. We'd love to hear your thoughts and keep the conversation going. Don't forget to leave us a five-star review if you found the episode valuable, and make sure to share it with anyone who might benefit from our tips and stories. We'll see you next time. This podcast is produced by American Gutter Monkeys LLC. Build real wealth through business ownership. For details, visit us at AmericanGutterMonkeyscom.